Gunslingers - Family History & Genealogy Message Board

Re: Cantrell Raiders

alexgamble1 — 2009-11-17 19:54:50Z

In my family (the gambles) theres a legend that says we are supposedly directly related 2 the cantrell's. The story i was told was that one of the cantrell's had a slave wife and a best friend whos last name was gamble. when cantrell went off to join the army he asked gamble to look after his slave wife until he got bak. apparently wen cantrell returned gamble had sold his wife to another master and fled the area, so cantrell tracked him down, killed him, and then took his name in order to hide from the law.

So i was just wondering if this is possibly true and if u have a source that u r getting any information from, if u could get bak 2 me with the answer. I would appreciate it.
Thank you
-alex

Re: Australian bushranger Frank Gardiner

neilgen1 — 2009-10-17 11:01:54Z

It was only early this year I discovered that GGgrandparents Archibald Craig and wife Louisa were (innocently) in partnership with Frank Gardiner at Apis Creek. Seems they did not know his true identity. Archibald had the hotel licence and Christie/Gardiner owned the general store.
I can only assume that as our family thought they were associated with the more upper classes with landholdings, any association with bushrangers was never to be mentioned.
Archibald was arrested but soon released. He died of a fever at Apis Creek in 1868. Louisa and 3 children born there returned to her parents at Penola, SA.

Neil
Vic

Re: Buckskin Frank Leslie

emeraldkees — 2009-10-14 17:55:46Z

Hello
Yes I do, as I am the granddaughter of 1 of his brothers.
would love to talk to you.
What all do you know about Frank
do you have skype on your computer

Re: Buckskin Frank Leslie

atwaterloo — 2009-10-14 17:51:05Z

We are related then! my great grandfather was Herman Leslie who was the younger brother of Lee. My great-great grand parents were Frank and Josephine (Miller) Leslie. This Frank isn't the same as Buckskin Frank Leslie, but I'm researching whether or not he was related. It looks like he may have been an uncle?

Re: Buckskin Frank Leslie

atwaterloo — 2009-10-14 17:29:50Z

I am tracing my geneology back to buckskin frank also. do you know the names of any of his siblings?

Re: Bittercreek NEWCOMB?

jannita50 — 2009-09-15 02:18:41Z

How are u related?
Thanks Jannita Newcomb

Re: Bittercreek or Bittersweet NEWCOMB?

jannita50 — 2009-09-15 02:17:53Z

Hi Karen,
By chance would u know where George was born or who his father was- also natanality was. I was told we had a Bittercreek Newcomb in are family that rode with the Daltons and James boys. We also had family in Shawnee, OK
McCalip (that were related to the Newcomb family in IL- I have confirmation James Newcomb from Richview, IL traded horese will all of them in the late 1870"s- after the civil war
Thanks Jannita Newcomb

Re: Bittercreek Newcomb

jannita50 — 2009-09-15 02:04:25Z

This was posted while back...
You said dad is Bittercreeks grandson?
What was his nationality? Where was Bittercreek born and raised?
Thanks Jannita

Gardner Gang

CoreyGardner51 — 2009-08-13 05:23:47Z

I am researching mysterious outlaws known as the Gardner Gang. I have had no luck in finding anything about these desperadoes. I have only found one news article.

It was a news article in 1928 written in Decatur, Illinois about Herbert Cody Blake, a Wild West performer hunting for treasure buried by the gang. According to Blake and several writers, the Gardner boys had robbed a smuggler's pack train from Mexico, stealing gold bars and jewels. The outlaws fled to the Guadalupe Mountains where the gunmen buried the loot in one of the caves of the New Mexico Territory.

Although the treasure is likely a myth, the Gardner boys were the real deal. Blake had searched the Gardners through old newspapers and long time residents of the Southwest. The notorious Gardner boys of course have been forgotten today, but hopefully these forgotten notorious gunfighters named Gardner will live on.

Does anyone know of any bad men named Gardner in the Wild West?

I have a number of candidates but this has been very difficult.

Best,
Corey

Re: Boone Helm

bajakm46 — 2009-08-11 03:45:10Z

Yes, he is the brother of William (wid) Johnson Helm, one of the eight brothers that came out to Calif. in the mid 1800's. They settled in the Warners Springs area and became cow ranchers. Wid is my great grandfather. The Helms were known to ware their rough side out.
If you would like to go to myfamily.com and register you will find a ton of info regarding the Boys.

I am Patsy Shaeffer - Daughter of Pearl Mae Helm whom is the daughter of John "Babe" Helm and the granddaughter of Wid Helm who owned the Helm ranch which is now the Jasper ranch in Ranchita, California.
Good Luck in your search.

Re: Reno Gang

deranged222 — 2009-08-02 04:56:36Z

I know this is an old post, but some good info can be found at www.outlawhistory.com. Has some interesting tidbits about the Reno Gang.

GARDNER

CoreyGardner51 — 2009-07-31 01:05:08Z

Lewis Gardner, a notorious "bad man" in Texas.
Big Phil Gardner, a notorious desperado in Colorado.
Pliny Gardner, a professional gunfighter and member of the infamous Daly Gang in California.
Jerry Gardner, a noted buffalo hunter and cold blooded killer.
John Gardner, a cowboy, Texas Ranger, and an alleged member of the Sam Bass Gang.
Lige Gardner, a noted Texas gunman.
George Gardner, a noted Missouri horse thief and bad man.
G. L. Gardner, a desperado and deputy marshal.
Joe Gardner, a cowboy and desperado.
Charles Gardner, a gambler and gunman in New Mexico.
H. L. "Black Bart" Gardner, a highwayman and stagecoach robber in California.
Walter Gardner, a train robber in Texas.
Ed Gardner, a deputy marshal and alleged member of the Dalton Gang.
Tom Gardner, a cowboy, fast gun, and rancher in Wyoming.
Billy Gardner, a noted fast gun in Texas and New Mexico.
Nicholas Gardner, a member of an outlaw gang who served time in Leavenworth.
Matt Gardner, a cowboy, Texas Ranger, and vigilante known for capturing bandits.
Roy Gardner, a notorious outlaw, bandit, mail train robber, and escape artist who was later sent to Alcatraz Island.

If anyone has information, contact me.

Re: john wesley hardin

brucewhite139 — 2009-07-19 05:08:31Z

I have written a treatise on John Wesley Hardin's ancestry. This is to correct the false genealogies that tie his father to Benjamin Watson Hardin of Liberty Co, TX.

http://bruce-white.us/inwork/johnwesleyhardin_lineage.pdf

Re: john wesley hardin

turfbinder — 2009-07-02 12:49:15Z

Need more info...dates and states.
N Brown

Re: john wesley hardin

alabamaboyrtr85 — 2009-07-02 12:35:15Z

my name is jeremy hardin, my dad's name is terry lendall hardin, and my grandpa's name is herbert hardin. my grandpa told me that we are kin to john wesley hardin. he also said that hardin county in tennessee was founded by one of our ancestors. can someone tell me if this is true? email me @ alabamaboyrtr85@aol.com

Re: Boone Helm and the Willis's

terwert1 — 2009-07-01 03:11:22Z

Cousin Tom--

What a great story!! You sound just like a Willis. Grandpa Harry used to tell me a story when I was little about his first wife (Wagon Wheel Mary) she only had one leg!! This story continued to where she had no legs, 3 legs, one arm, one eye etc...till I was in my late 20's!!(he was such a story teller) Could never get him to talk about the war though.
I am having a great time going through this cedar chest, I just wish some of the pictures I'm finding were labeled. There is so much information in here. I'll keep sharing as I go along. My home email is terwert@charter.net Please keep in touch--

Cousin Tina

Re: Boone Helm and the Willis's

twcrowell1 — 2009-06-30 18:51:10Z

Thanks !!!!

Now if I'm right, Grandpa Fike was born in 1889. Brother Harry and Jean, Jim, Fred, were all in about that time. Now, your Grandpa Harry Willis, that was born in 1924, about the the same time, that mother was born - 1920, so I know that great granpa Robert, was the father to them all. As far as Bruce Willis, he does look like the Willis's. Some would say that he's a typical Willis, A good set of clothes, a good bottle of booze, and not worth a good G** D***! Francis Willis who was killed in WWII looked like the actor Gary Cooper, and he was the glue to the whole families out there in Montana. That was south of Havre, and north of Fort Benton, near Big Sandy on a homestead. After Francis was killed, mother's brother Stanley -(Buck)-who was a couple of years younger than Francis never recovered from his death. When he left to go over seas on the train, from Fort Benton Francis smiled to everyone, waved and then turned to Stanley and said, They'll going to get me, I won't be back. My ropes, saddle, spurs, are all yours. Then he got on the train, and a few months later was killed in Tunisa.
Mother and grandmother used to say that Stanley turned cold, and hard. It was because of the loss of Francis. Many times they said they used to see him by himself looking down at the ground, and they could tell he was thinking of Francis. He would say that he lost his only brother in the war..It was forbidden to even talk about him among all the relatives. Francis was something else. He'd walk into a room, and it would lite up, and then everyone would just want to be near him. I once read a letter from his mother Aunt Ida who was married to Jean Willis, and it was so touching what she said about him, that I couldn't even finish it. They where just lost without him. Take care and keep in touch -- Cousin Tom. Boone Helm, they say was a uncle to the Willis's, I think on great grandma's Willis's side. I heard it once, but that was years ago...

Re: Boone Helm and the Willis's

twcrowell1 — 2009-06-30 18:51:08Z

Re: Boone Helm

terwert1 — 2009-06-29 16:24:11Z

P.S. Happy Birthday!!!

Re: Boone Helm

terwert1 — 2009-06-29 16:22:22Z

Tom,

Thank you so much for all this information, it brought a tear to my eye. I remember my Grandpa, Harry Willis, talking about his Grandpa Robert. I lost him in 2003 and my Grandma Dessie Willis (Watson) just June of last year. I sure wish I would have asked more questions then. It is so exciting seeing how everything is coming together. Yes, my cousins-Jack & Sharon Buck & family live in Davenport, WA. Do you know how the connection is with your Grandpa Fike and Boone Helm, you said he was an uncle? Do you know any specifics? In the cedar chest is pictures of Boone Helm's headstone and Grandpa gave me a keychain when I was 9 that had his birthday and date of death on it. It is metal. My Grandpa had a 2 brothers Floyd and Vern (I think they were half brothers) and 2 sisters Joyce and Mickey (Minnie). Hope to hear from you soon....thanks again Tom.

Re: Boone Helm

twcrowell1 — 2009-06-29 14:26:06Z

That is correct cousin...Uncle Harry, and Grandpa Fike were the closest to the brothers. There was also Jean, Jim, and Fred...LZ was the youngest of the boys. If I remember right Harry left Montana, and moved out to Spokane WA. where he married a lady with 2 boys by another marriage. Mom's brother Stanley -- (Buck) and his cousis Francis Willis used to go a visit them. Later Francis was killed in WWII. Mary Willis was granpa's favorite sister. So, everything has worked out well. I live here in K.C., and Great grandpa Robert was a real character...I just turned 55 on the 28th of June.

Keep in touch...Tom

Re: Boone Helm

terwert1 — 2009-06-28 20:29:56Z

Actually My Great Great Grandather is your Grandfathers Dad, I think. Fike Willis is Robert A. Willis Son?

Re: Boone Helm

terwert1 — 2009-06-28 20:27:21Z

To twcrowell, I have been doing tons of research on my family tree. Like I said My grandpa was Harry Willis. Going through their cedar chest. I found my Great-grandfathers Birth certificate. Harry G. Willis and his parents are Robert A. Willis and Paulina Bell. I found an old picture too that has 12 people in it. Gene, Jim, Harry, Bernice, Fike (Mathias Benjamin?) LZ, Janice, Mary etc. So if I'm reading this all right. My Great Great Grandfather and your Grandfather were brothers?

Re: Boone Helm

grtadman2000 — 2009-06-26 15:13:56Z

Actually Boone Helm (whose given name was Levi Boone Helm) was born in Kentucky and his family actually moved to Monroe County, MISSOURI when he was just a young child. Boone Helm's family never lived in IOWA! Sorry to disappoint you.
He actually shot and killed a man in Monroe County, MO, fled the county but was hunted down, tried for murder to which the plea was "not guilty by reason of insanity". He later fled Missouri and headed west where he terrorized the folks out there and in Canada.

Re: Cantrell Raiders

jlc6719 — 2009-06-26 04:48:36Z

ive always wanted to know just how much indian i have in me.
my grandfather was johnny stanton cantrell.
he from semore marshfield erea
also burried in liberity cemitary in semore.
my grandma cant tell me anything really.
all i really know is he couldnt read or wright,and signed his name with an X"

Re: Boone Helm

terwert — 2009-06-24 23:58:51Z

Wow! My grandfather was Harry Willis...born August 4th, 1924...we have some Cherokee blood. so this might explain it.

Re: Boone Helm

terwert — 2009-06-24 23:49:51Z

I have known that Boone Helm is supposed to be my distant cousin since I was 9years old. I have a key chain made of metal that has his name and the year he was hanged and now buried on Boot Hill in Montana. I don't know much more but have always wanted to visit there. I am 40 now.

Re: Cantrell Raiders

duanebryant1 — 2009-05-23 19:50:21Z

My family is originally from Webster county Missouri. The last names were Bryant, Cardwell, Tuttle, and Morton.
My grandma says that we didnt get much history passed down because of participation with Cantrell's raiders. I would like to find out if this is all true. They were from Seymour, Mansfield, Marshfield, area. Any insight?

Re: Australian bushranger Frank Gardiner

craigresides — 2009-04-15 02:53:52Z

Another Australian bushranger who dodged the bullet and noose was John Vane. Ben Hall and the other members of his gang during 1863 (after Gardiner had skipped to Qld with Hall's sister-in-law) caught up with Vane and Micky Burke at Neville, NSW. Vane being established in duffing of their own district and a quality horseman. The new gang raided Bathurst twice (unsuccessfully) and performed other famous exploits during this period.

Shortly after Burke was killed, during the raid on Dunn's Plains, Vane surrendered and was sentenced to 15 years at Darlinghurst. He served only six years, with two months at Cockatoo Island in between by mistake. Vane met up with Gardiner while at Darlinghurst.

After his release Vane worked for a short time in Sydney as a stonemason, on St Mary's Cathedral, before returning to the Central West.

He died of fever in Cowra hospital in 1906 at the age of 64.

Re: Boone Helm

KenRockwell86 — 2009-03-09 20:55:50Z

Finding this thread many years later, but I have in hand a fairly new book you'll want to know about if you don't already: Tom McDevitt's "The Cannibal, Boone Helm," published privately by the author in 2008. Author's address : PO Box 4928, Pocatello, ID 83205-4928;
Phone: 208-232-1847

Lewis GARDNER, the gunfighter

CoreyGardner51 — 2009-02-25 05:37:27Z

Lewis Gardner was born in 1809 at South Carolina. He migrated to Georgia where he married while in his mid - twenties and fathered thirteen children. Gardner was reared to agricultural pursuits and removed to Mississippi where he owned a farm, along with a few slaves. His sons fought for the Rebel cause and his wife divorced him during the Civil War. Afterwards, he went to Texas where he was a horse trader. Lewis Gardner was a notorious gunfighter and lived at Brownsville, Texas, trading and selling horses at the King Ranch. He was later supposedly ambushed and killed in a gunfight with horse thieves at Neches, Texas while transporting horses to Louisiana. However, it was recorded that he spent his last years in Johnson County, Texas. Mystery surrounds him.

If anyone has information, contact me at lonewolfcg@aol.com.

Corey Gardner, great - great - great grandson of Lewis Gardner

Re: Bittercreek NEWCOMB?

stone13_1 — 2009-02-13 17:32:44Z

Thats not how he died
I would know i studied him because im related

Re: Cantrell Raiders

danjt142 — 2009-01-29 03:15:00Z

I am a direct descendant also. My great-grandmother's uncle was a Cantrell, and was one of the instigators. I am trying to find out more about it for a paper I am writing. Granny was rather tight-lipped about the whole thing, because she was embarrassed to be related to them!

Re: Boone Helm

twcrowell1 — 2009-01-23 18:06:51Z

My Grandfather was Fike Willis, born in 1889 in IOWA, his uncle was Boone Helm, who was hung in Virginia City, MT in Jan. 1864. The Willis's, Helm's, and Bell's all married into each other, and were some of the first families, (I am told) that settled into IOWA. Helm, had a indian wife who helped him escaped from jail in Oregon, by tying ropes to the bars on the jail, and pulled them off by horseback. Later he was caught in Montana, and there is were they hung him....

Re: Reno Gang

add925 — 2009-01-10 17:58:30Z

You can check out my book, Anarchy in the Heartland - The Reno Gang Saga written in 2008: http://anarchyintheheartland.blogspot.com/

Re: john wesley hardin to rushingnorm

rushingnorm1 — 2008-12-30 16:22:45Z

First, I do not charge for helping others with research. People help me, I try to help others.
Ollie Hardin was born Ollive or Olive Hardin, born in July, 1892 to Tom (Thomas B. I believe) Hardin, b. May 1864 in AL to William W. hardin, born about 1825 in GA and his parents were of SC and Martha J., b. C 1828 in GA and her parents were of VA.
Tom Hardin's wife was Molly, b. aug 1863 in LA and her parents were of GA. Children were: Ollie, b. Oct 1885, Thimothy, Aug 1888, David, June 1890, your GM Ollive, b. July 1892, Juohn 1894, Lola June 1895, Maru? Sept 1897.

Above were in Lincoln Co., Rustin, LA

ALso, Henry R. Mays, 1920 census same location age 28, b. LA
wife Ollie, 28, b. LA, father AL(Tom or Thomas B. Hardin), 2 daughters and 1 son, Henry Jr. age 2, Ester age 5, Eloistin? 7.
1910 census same location:
Sepronia A. Mays, age 42 widowed, b. LA, Fa GA, Mo SC, Henry R. age 19 Frank 17, Dalles 15, Nancy 13, Cason 10 , Mary 8.
1900 same location:
Frank 34, b. LA Fa GA Mo LA, b. C1866
wife (spelling is Fronta probably short for Sepronia), b. Sept 1868. Son Henry born Mar 1891.
A few hourses away is probably Frank's father...J. L. Mays, age 89, b. C1820 GA, living alone.
Henry Rober Mays grew into manhood and one day met a beautiful young girl named Ollive Oil...I mean Ollie, fell madly in love, married and rode off into the sunset.

Ollie's father Tom was probably son of William in 1880 Pike Co., AL, age 55, born GA. I think this line can be traced back to SC. Right off the top of my head I do know that a John Hardin branched off to GA but I have not researched his descendants. He was b. Jan 1763, Tyron Co., NC and died
1788 in an Indian battle at Lookout Mt. GA.
His father Joseph A. Hardin and Jane Gibson had 15 children
and Hardin pollen was spread far and wide.
It is very probably that your GM was ditantly related to John Wesley back at least 6 or more generations.
Georgia has many old records that have been preserved and there is most likely some documents there that could nail it down.
get back with me if you have questions or if you have something different or new.
Norm

Re: john wesley hardin to rushingnorm

mmshorey — 2008-12-30 13:21:44Z

I have done no research at all. Here is my story:
I grew up in northern Louisiana. My grandmother was Ollie Hardin. When I was a child, she whispered to me that her maiden name was Hardin, but that she did not tell people that because there was an outlaw in Texas by the same name. I am 60 years old. My grandmother was born in the late 1800's. My grandfather (her husband), Henry Roger Mays, was raised by his mother because his father supposedly abandoned the family. Supposedly some word made it back to them that he was doing something with horses and had died in a saloon somewhere - thought to be Texas. I was never interested in this until I saw a black and white photo of John Wesley Hardin on a PBS program about outlaws. It was like looking in the face of my son, Robert, except that his hair was light, not dark like the picture. The striking similarity gave me goosebumps and now I am curious. I live in St. Louis and would be willing to pay some agreed upon amount to have you research this. Do you do that?

Re: john wesley hardin

jrjkspaulding — 2008-12-28 01:22:13Z

I have been told also that I am related to John Wesley Hardin, my grandmother's father's name was Clark Hardin and his father's name was Younger Hardin. I am doing research so any information would be greatly appreciated. my e-mail is jrjkspaulding@yahoo.com

Re: Australian bushranger Frank Gardiner

hharch — 2008-11-28 20:36:13Z

There's an inaccuracy in the claim here that Frank Gardiner was the only bushranger not to die of gunshot wounds or hanging. His co-prisoner in Cockatoo Island Prison, Fred Ward (Captain Thunderbolt) wasn't shot at Uralla as the police claimed. It was his uncle, Harry Ward, who doubled as 'Captain Thunderbolt' to the annoyance of the real McCoy. The police cover-up of the facts surrounding the 'death' of Thunderbolt had its roots in the way Sgt Walker (who shot Harry) wrongly claimed the reward. The crime remains hidden by a shameless NSW Police to this day, and my attempts to get a state MP to get access to incriminating records have so far been thwarted.

Fred Ward, like Gardiner, went to California. I'm sure he looked Gardiner up at his Saloon in San Francisco. Ward and his wife were true folk heroes, the legends of whom were trashed by corrupt police. The way Ward was treated tells us a lot about how Australia ended up as a nation of individuals with little real character. Basically good men like Ward were (i) treated badly by corrupt officials, and (ii) disposed of as a nuisance. We pay the cost of that shabby colonial policy to this day.

Re: Cantrell Raiders

bernece_a — 2008-11-13 03:35:32Z

Hi, My father's cousin said that her father, Virgil Williams had said that one of his brothers or Uncles was in the raiders. He was young maybe 16 or 17, and I don't know which one it was. They lived in Fristo, Benton,MO. and had 7 sons, half went and fought in the south and the others for the north and the one brother to the raiders. My father remembers him as being very quite man. But looking at the ages of the brothers, he probably didn't know the one in the raiders. Since the Civil war started in 1861 to 1865 the only sons were 26, 24, 21, 19 and 17. The 17 yr. old would have been the one in the Raiders, but I'm not sure. Thir names were John, Virgil, George, W. Thomas, Greenbury, the 17 year old brother. Their surname was Williams. I don't know if this helps. Let me know if you have anymore info. Bernece Williams Alexander

Re: Reno Gang

sarahazebrouck — 2008-10-23 17:20:56Z

are you related to the Reno Brothers?

Re: Reno Gang

sarahazebrouck — 2008-10-23 17:19:17Z

hi. the renos were really the first train robbers. they lived in Rockford, IN. they are buried in Seymour, IN.

The first train robbery took place at 6:30 p.m. on October 6, 1866. An Ohio & Mississippi train left the depot at Seymour. It slowly traveled east out of town. Three Reno Gang members — most likely John and Sim Reno, along with Frank Sparks — had boarded the train at the station. Once the train was a few miles out of town, the trio of men made their way from the coach, across the platform to the Adams Express Co. car. They forced their way inside. Messenger Elam Miller gave up his keys at gunpoint. The masked robbers opened the small local depot safe, which contained the packages picked up at the various stations en route. They obtained, according to Jackson County Court records, ‘one safe the value of Thirty Dollars, Three Canvas Bags of the value of One Dollar Each, Ten Thousand Dollars in Gold Coin and Thirty Three Dollars in Bank Notes.’ They attempted to open the larger safe, containing valuables shipped from St. Louis, but failed. When the terrified Elam Miller told the outlaws that he was unable to open it, the robbers slugged him and then rolled the large safe to the door of the express car. One of the gang members pulled the bell rope to signal the engineer to stop the train. When the train had slowed down, they pushed the larger safe out the door. A little while later, the robbers jumped off. One of the gang members yelled, “All right!” and the train picked up speed. They backtracked to where they pushed the safe out of the train. Waiting there was Frank Reno, William Reno, and some other member of the gang with the getaway horses. Try as they might, they couldn’t pry open the safe. Some sources say that the safe had $35,000 in gold.

Re: Reno Gang

sarahazebrouck — 2008-10-23 16:18:07Z

hello gunslinger,
i'm doing a report on the Renos. The Reno family was from the Salt River area of Kentucky. They moved to Jackson County, Indiana in 1813. The Reno’s settled on a farm near Rockford, just North of present-day Seymour. The first Reno was James Reno and his son, Wilkinson. Wilkinson married in 1838. He and his wife, Julia Ann, moved to a 1,200-acre property to raise family. In 1837 his first son, Frank, was born, followed by John in 1838, Simeon (’Sim’) in 1843, Clinton in 1847, William in 1848 and finally a daughter, Laura, in 1851.Only four grew up to start the Reno Gang. The four are Simon, William, John, and Frank. It is unsure if William was involved in the train or other out of state robberies. If this is true then he was not a true member of the Reno Gang.

Re: john wesley hardin

rushingnorm1 — 2008-08-31 16:20:25Z

My friend has many relatives who are genealogists who provided letters, bible records, etc. plus his own bible records, letters, stories passed down, from his parents and grandparents.
He is a historian in his own right and he knows a lot about John Wes Hardin and the entire clan.
Some of his relatives had/as copies of the book John Wes wrote about himself (actually a manuscript that was published after his death) and these relatives did not even read it and hid the books away and would not tell anyone they were related. I assume that it the area where they lived, people would not be kind to them if they knew they were related.
Many Hardins had to leave their home counties and venture out and away from the feuds to safer areas.

Re: john wesley hardin to rushingnorm1

rushingnorm1 — 2008-08-31 16:12:10Z

Hello again:
I failed to edit my last reply so ignore my fast and error filled responses.
All things are possible but the point is No one can provide a source for saying there was this daughter. It has been placed in a tree at rootsweb by someone and this is the only place I have seen it. The census reoords do not support it or any other document that I am aware of.

We can say just about anything but can we back it up?

I wrote in a book once 'He fled to Texas to beat the hangman and his grandson asked 'Why did you go all the way to Texas Grandpa"? 'Well" he replied "That is what one did back then when he got in trouble, he went to Texas". Then, years later I find that he did not go because it was the thing one did, it was because he had an uncle in Texas who probably fled Alabama for some unknown crime. Ten years of try to find out where he went resulted in one email from a new found relative who said his uncle lived in a certain location when I had listed the uncle as "Dead at a young age". I sure missed the boat on that one!

So, we were not there so we can only support what we can doucment which I say again "Show me the document"! I learned that after stumbling around calling myself a genealogist when I had training wheels. We live, we learn, or we hope we do.
Thanks

Re: john wesley hardin to rushingnorm1

rushingnorm1 — 2008-08-31 16:00:34Z

Thank you for your reply and indepth clarification of your Hardin line. I will try to be brief and hope I answer all your questions.

Near me is a friend named Jimmy Harden. I asked once "is yor family related to John Wes Hardin"? "No we are not" he replied. Then, I resarched his line and YES he WAS.

The spelling is like any other surname. My SUllivans had probably 30 different spelling. Hardin versus Harden started (probably) with someone failing to dot the i, thus making it read Harden rather thatn Hardin. Keep in mind that many in the old days did not have the opportnity to attend schools so grammer was lacking in many families.

I suggest you find this book by Leon Metz "John Wesley Hardin"! It has a subtitle that escapes me at the moment. Leon is an accurate historian and he reviewed just about all that is known of Wes Hardin and Yes he did kill a man for snoring to loud BUT it was an accident according to Wes. He said he banged on the wall and told the man to stop but could not wake him. He intended to shoot his pistol above the mans bed, and did but the man had gotten up and plugged him with a lead pill right in the kisser (could be mouth or rear)...did not say where the ball struck, but did kill him.

My interest is as a writer and student of history. All gunfighters and pioneer lawmen interest me in general as does Wes.

My interest at present with Hardins is John Wes's little brother Jefferson Davis "Jeff" "went by J. D." who was probably more of a gunfighter than his big broter. He looked up to Wes and wanted so much to be like him but he was not cold blooded like Wes except one time and that was went he shot a man below the left eye with a .45 pistol. The man was unarmed and Jeff was charged to go before an inquest. He was killed in a real gunfight with his first cousin by marriage in 1901. The terms were equal with both using hangguns and both prepared to duel. Most of Wes's gunfights were not really gunfights. He killed many with a shotgun and many were not stand up duels. But he was fast and knew how to handle weapons. He invented the "Border roll"!

One story had been written on Jeff Hardin but they had some facts wrong and published a photo of him BUT it was not him. It was his brother Joe. Jeff was killed about 30 miles south of my cave in West TX. No one has published the reason for the gunfight or what led up to the fight or even the date of his death. His headstone reads "died 1901"!

My barber (and close friend) is Morris Hardin and he is related to this line of Hardins. He has provided a lot of the information I have on Hardins.

I have a copy of the death certificate on John Wes Jr. and Mollie Hardin Billings was informant on details.

I am always seeking information on Hardins for two reasons. One is to fill in gaps for my friend Morris and to further my research efforts.

In summary, I believe that Mr. Metz has given the best accounting of John Wes Hardin in an unbiased and indepth manner. He is a respected historian and writer and I personally think he did an excellent job on covering the life of Wes. He went indepth on each and ever killing and as I recall it exceeded 40. He was not a man to one wished to bother!

If you need to contact me personally please email at
turfbind at yahoo dot com!

to turfbinder

tj_hardin — 2008-08-31 15:57:02Z

Please let me know how the book is going!!! When I was researching I came across this book: John Wesley Hardin, Texas Gunman by Nordyke, Lewis. Although it is a little embellished as a novel, I enjoyed actually getting into the perspective of living as him and the true life details we will never historically find. It started my interest in historical fiction, although I can't call it that. So much is missing because he was running. I also hate that I am from Texas and he truly began and ended as one of the last "Texas Outlaws" but most of his story takes place in other states hidden away. Many shouldn't claim his lineage completely leaves Texas because Texan family, I feel, has more ties, interest, and relationship to the Texan's life.
I have carried his genes, or at least his spirit, since I was born. My father's family has stayed in Texas for generations. My grandfather is John Wesley Hardin, Sr. and my father is Jr. My great grandmother was Cherokee which is why I know his family tree can't go that far from Texas. By the way, is there any way to prove historically that it is Hardin with an "i" not an "e". I hate seeing it both ways and have met many Harden's that have no clue about JWH. Even visiting our State History museum has it written both ways in one paragraph. Totally confusing! I am interested in continuing my research because not only would I be proud to have such an ancestor, but that his elder uncle Augustine actually signed the Texas Declaration of Independence! This could prove that I am a daughter of the republic of Texas. My grandmother says she has researched the lineage and it is true, but so many people claim relation. I truly think his life and lovers will remain a mystery unsolved. He spent the majority of his life covering up any proof he existed and hiding the Hardin name. I am intrigued that so much interest exists but I think following his trail, state to state, cattle trails to trains, no real proof can exist. Even he left out so much in his own story. If I never know the truth, I am still inspired by my family, and I frequently find myself acting like the JWH I studied. Truly, he never shot a man for snoring... and reasoned never shooting anyone that didn't deserve it, which is how I act towards others during conflict...it needs a reason. I know he was no mass murderer, just a man with reason, morals, and a short temper. I hate that quality about myself, especially as an teacher (just like he was at one proud time), but I feel that it makes us more parallel than any genes can prove. Plus I am one hell of a card player! Anyways, I would like to hear about your investments with JWH, and read your book! Any findings about family in Buda, TX? I will contact my grandmother for her research and if I find anything interesting I will get back to you. P.S. What is your relation to JWH?

Re: john wesley hardin

tj_hardin — 2008-08-31 15:12:32Z

How did your friend/associate obtain these records? Can someone take a DNA sample? lol

Re: john wesley hardin to rushingnorm1

tj_hardin — 2008-08-31 13:38:50Z

I think all these names and dates are amusing as well Norm! You are correct about Jane's 3 children, but do you actually think that all his years on the run, state through state, saloon after saloon playing cards and gun fighting that JWH couldn't have possibly fathered another child? And especially questionable is during his time post-jail as an experienced widower, and as a lawyer/lover of his very own client there are still no possibilities? I am not an expert trying to prove anything, but after researching him for years and trying to validate his actions, even he, in his own autobiography is very sketchy about what all happened before, during, and after he was in contact with his wife and children on the run. My resources found show no interest in his love life except to Jane and legal client. What are your sources, may I ask? Are you family?

Re: Boone Helm

aeichelemike — 2008-06-10 10:19:37Z

Type in Boone Helm on your google search bar. Go to Boone Helm Kentucky cannibal..........he was a bad one alright..good luck in your search